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Forum: Euroleague - results

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2010-04-06 15:07:56 Igor Eged (ancientdragon)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4772
Just to be more precise:
I mean noone can demand new game after disconnect or insult the opponent if he doesn't want to replay, of course if the game is in later stadium this is not even advised to replay but if it is just few moves and players really come to agreement, it is possible. Next time please, consult this with captains first.

And when I wrote about consulting with captains, I mean just this scenario, but player should never ask anyone about his opinion about his position when game is still running of course, maximum he can ask is about match score to decide if the draw is ok for match score, not about his position, that would be strongly unfair.

A player should not communicate with anyone using private messages during the match, if someone is interested in match score, he can ask on main chat.

Also captain usually is paralelly playing his game, so it is not ok to demand something from him if he is still playing. But if a player makes his decision, he also takes the consequences, that's why it is better either to not replay disconnected games at all or that captain respects player's decision and if he replays, simply accept that fact and count the game.
2010-04-06 14:50:57 Igor Eged (ancientdragon)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4771
Well, the game mentioned by zukole was other situation - there was no objection and if it is agreed by both teams, it is valid.

But I don't see the situation as clear as Attila, not at all.
Of course there is no automatic right to replay the game after disconnect, but if the players agree to play another game instead, it is possible. And about particular game decide both players. If the player offers draw and is accepted, it is draw even if captain protests and says he had winning position, the same if a player resigns and captain doesnt agree. The player should consult this with captain first, but if he doesn't, it's his problem.

Well, KR really didn't provide a complete reasoning and explanation, that's why committee members themself had to investigate instead.

But there are also many arguments that say that 16-16 would be fair in this case.
For example:
- both players agreed about playing third game instead of first, interrupted by disconnection after few moves
- all other games were finished and players observed the third game, noone objected or demanded interruption of this now "illegal" game as invalid and continuation of the match
- match score was counted including this game by zukole and nobody protested until the end of match, thus KR also was given false hope that they are fighting for draw, they might also choose different tactics if the score was different.

So there IS a reason, why this decision is not easy, Attila...
2010-04-06 13:50:27 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4770
Attila, in season 2006/07 yours games with whgadael ( Woodenheads ) - http://www.euroleague.cz/php/resultdetails.php?pai=146. You played three games, because you had problem with internet - http://forum.gomoku.pl/viewtopic.php?p=27462&highlight=#27462. So, this argument is funny.
2010-04-06 13:29:39 Attila Demján (bcattila)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4769
Hello all,

I don't really understand how could such situation grow this big. I understand both teams but I don't see why committee can not decide the result. For me, it is obvious that the result is 17:15, because the first 2 games was won by zathras against morph.

Since euroleague is an online competition, the circumstances can not be clear enough to make everything as fair as it should be. There are many players who are losing net connection and losing precious points on it. So what? That can happen to anyone... Our team, Barbe Cube lost many games because of bad connection, but we can not do anything against it, only trying to fix the connection, not replaying any game...

What happens if the connection of morph is lost in the 3rd game? They play a 4th game? And they play games until someone reaches 5 in a row?
All players should count with losing connection, this is why online gaming has some defects.

And even if zathras agreed to play the 3rd game, the CAPTAINS should have agreed to count the result of 3rd game instead of the 1st. If it didn't happen, I mean if the 2 captains did not know about the intention of morph and zathras, the 3rd game should not be considered as a EL game. Without the agreement of the two captains, players should not do anything on their own, especially if the rules are not clear for them.

If committee decides the result as a draw, it will be possible in the future to say for my opponent that my connection is bad (especially if I have bad position on the board) and ask for a new game. It would be so nonsense and bad, moreover committe would support unfair gaming which would result more and more conflicts.

Ah, and for last, I really miss the concrete and polite explanation from Klub Rzeszow. They didn't really explain their intention, only wrote 1-2 sentences, like "you should be happy for draw".

Considering this all, I don't see any reason to make this game 16:16.

I hope you can fix the problem and we can start the 8th round.

Best regards,

Attila
2010-04-06 13:07:36 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4768
How can both teams tell the truth, if they cant confirm the final result??
2010-04-06 11:47:07 Riku Kuokka (tornitus)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4767
Both teams are telling the truth, but both also have different opinions. In my opinion 2 games matter, and if we say that third game was non-EL-game, then it isnt EL game. As Costinas said, KR is at our mercy, because 2 games matter.

And also, the rule says: "5.7.A player gains 1 game point for each won game."
So zathras gets 2 points from the first 2 victories.
2010-04-06 11:17:44 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4766
Dont worry, all members are alive, but we have different opinions about this case. Decision is very important for lotting pairs from the top, specialy we have 2 rounds only till the end of EL. The case is so much problematic, because we cant know, which team tells the truth.

The 8th round has started on Monday. You can ask your teammates immidiately when they can play without knowing your opponent. Just wait for the pairs. I hope that all teams (specialy from the top) understand that committee tries to find equitably decision.
2010-04-06 09:55:57 Pavel Laube (kedlub)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4763
Read that answers properly iec, "just in case" is the explanation of "Why Zathras actually played that extra match". "The interesting position" is the responce to "Why he played the same moves" - so there seems to be no internal agreement about replaying the position between them (although in Zathras case, who knows...).
However, the committe has had already one week to solve it, the new round should start and there is still no outcome. I hope not only iec is alive there..

Salve
2010-04-06 03:02:18 Michał Wileczek (krvilumisiek)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4762
there was no word about "just in case"

it was only told that its new game, on table
2010-04-06 01:44:55 Igor Eged (ancientdragon)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4761
This seems inconsistent for me.
In message 4720 you write they played the game 'just in case...' and now because the position was interesting? You mean both teams just waited for some private game to finish? Why didn't you interrupt the game then.
Very important question for me is, how was the match score counted on main chat. Including the third game or without it? Because it seems KR played then with false hope they are fighting for draw etc.

I was away in Hungary without internet access now, but we have to sort this out before pairing for next round is made.

What about some witnesses? Any other comments about this match?
2010-03-31 08:01:25 Marko Pellikka (pellikka)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4744
As Costinas said, Kr is at our mercy. We shouldn't need to proof anything else than say that the first 2 games were EL games. The burden of proof is at KR side. KR has already said that in their opinion the third game was played as a rematch. We deny the third game being EL game.

This shouldn't really matter at all, but I can give you an answer to the question that why was the same position repeated in "third game". Zathras considered the position interesting and wanted to go for the same line.
2010-03-30 20:35:36 Costinas Beniamin (vlh_dragon)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4742
I understand your attempt to get a draw out of it , but as i see things , Mollo won . Even if he did say so , that means 0 if they want to deny it (and who can blame them). Practically, you are at their mercy , yet you make it seem as if they are breaking the rules (which is cute ... but it's WROOONG !!! ... as in that tv cartoon , 2 stupid dogs :D ).
2010-03-30 19:40:40 Mateusz Miśkiewicz (krmorph)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4741
This is does't matter now, Monika :)
2010-03-29 22:14:26 Monika Kolouchová (olsava)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4734
Sorry Vilumisiek for this, but I should remind to you our match, when this sites was down. On Wednesday we both agreed to play on Saturday. On Saturday when my team was ready to play, you cancelled it and I couldn´t do anything, because the date wasn´t write here. It´s funny for me to see you talking about the agreement...
2010-03-29 20:44:38 Riku Kuokka (tornitus)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4732
Zathras agreed to play it just in case there is some rule that he isnt aware of.
2010-03-29 19:11:13 Michał Wileczek (krvilumisiek)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4731
both players agree play 3 game with result like second game
2010-03-29 19:03:03 Mateusz Miśkiewicz (krmorph)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4730
Be happy from draw like us. That was really fair game and should be example to another teams !! :)
2010-03-29 17:55:10 Riku Kuokka (tornitus)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4729
I'm interested in hearing why should we be happy with a draw? Really weird in my opinion.
May i read between the lines that you are meaning "you should be happy with this draw, because our team is so much better anyway."?
I really disagree, we should not be happy with a draw, because we won the game 17-15..

-tornitus
2010-03-29 17:49:22 Mateusz Miśkiewicz (krmorph)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4728
Sorry Guys, we repeate game because, in first game i had problem with comp and i lost, then i lost for miss click, so apsolutlly was 0-2. But in this day I had unluck with copm. Then i ask Zathras "Can we repeate first game?" Then we repeate. You Team Mollo should be happy this draw. Thats all from my side
2010-03-29 13:34:22 Riku Kuokka (tornitus)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4727
The third game was played _just in case_ because players werent sure what the rules say. And as you can see, they say "5.7.A player gains 1 game point for each won game." So this should be a clear case.

There is no fairplay-rule that forces player to give his opponent a new chance. Zathras wasnt sure about this, and asked if he must play. No one gave him the answer so he decided to play this 3rd game just in case.

I think rules are rules, and 2 games matter, the third game was non-EL-game.

kind regards, tornitus
2010-03-29 12:17:11 Marko Pellikka (pellikka)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4725
So what is the rule that should have been understood here? I don't see a rule saying that if two players play third game, it is automatically considered as a rematch of one of the previous games. Such declaration would be a disaster full of contradictions on internet based tournaments in general, because there could be reasons like accidents, continuing playing just for fun, unclear rematches done by not knowing or understanding rules, non-understandable rules,..

I think it is very natural to not be 100% sure if this rule covers disconnection being a loss:

5.7.A player gains 1 game point for each won game.

Actually I think draw would be better for our team because with a win we will be paired with an opponent we have no chance to beat on next round :). But I hope this issue here brings also some clarity if the rules are revised one day.
2010-03-29 11:48:45 Igor Eged (ancientdragon)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4723
Well, if he had 5:xx then it was also a disadvantage for the opponent to replay the same position. If the position would be his advantage, then those 4+ extra minutes can be well used for attack. But with accepting an agreement, and accepting exactly the same moves to be played, the player is accepting this disadvantage voluntarily. 5 minutes break between games can be also misused for analysis. For future the best would be either to not replay at all or to replay using a completely new game, but both captains should agree about this first in advance, which seems was not a case here.

To replay "because I don't know the rule" is strange, because every team confirmed the members read and understand the rules :)

OK, now waiting for response from KR but please no insultations or bad behaviour, just facts.
2010-03-29 11:12:53 Marko Pellikka (pellikka)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4722
Wait a second. I think it's the KR who should say why the third game should be counted and not us saying why it is not. IMHO it should be always like that in case there is no common understanding how third game affects the score. So let's see their story first.
2010-03-29 10:58:35 Igor Eged (ancientdragon)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4721
My question is: was the third game really played "just in case" or both players made a gentleman agreement that because the first game was interrupted by network problem they don't count it and replay it again. I wonder, why would krmorph want to replay the first game otherwise?
2010-03-29 10:36:10 Marko Pellikka (pellikka)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4720
Third game was played, because zathras wasn't sure about the rules and he wanted to play it just in case, so that the issue could be sorted out later. However, he asked in game room during games against krmorph if he can get +1 from first game.

As a side note, krmorph had 5:xx left on clock when disconnection happened.
2010-03-29 10:06:18 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo
# 4717
Committe asks both captains to explain why Zathras and Krmorph played the 3rd game and the reasons why the 3rd game is (not) valid.
2010-03-28 22:02:38 Michał Wileczek (krvilumisiek)
(up to 40 characters, HTML tags are not
# 4713
haha, be seriuos

im sure that comitet will see it and tell who have right

losers
2010-03-28 17:29:04 Marko Pellikka (pellikka)
Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo 15:17
# 4711
Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo 15 : 17

Round: 1
krcrosslet - fire2fire 1 : 1
krmorph - tornitus 1 : 1
krvilumisiek - zathras 1 : 1
krjabik - pellikka 1 : 1

Round: 2
krmorph - fire2fire 1 : 1
krjabik - tornitus 0 : 2
krcrosslet - zathras 2 : 0
krvilumisiek - pellikka 0 : 2

Round: 3
krjabik - fire2fire 2 : 0
krvilumisiek - tornitus 1 : 1
krmorph - zathras 0 : 2
krcrosslet - pellikka 1 : 1

Round: 4
krvilumisiek - fire2fire 1 : 1
krcrosslet - tornitus 0 : 2
krjabik - zathras 2 : 0
krmorph - pellikka 1 : 1

Maybe Klub Rzeszow has a different opinion about the outcome of the krmorph - zathras games. But you can see the result played with opposite colors on PlayOK statistics section.

-marko
2010-03-06 09:37:26 Peter Jonsson (peterjo)
luffarna - attack team
# 4627
Attack team did not show up on February 25.

Peter Jonsson, captain Luffarna
2010-01-31 17:47:05 Ádám Varga (songokukek)
Kulonleges Erook- Attack team
# 4547
Kulonleges Erook vs Attack team : +-

Attack team didn't appear so we won by walk over.
Displayed message count: 30