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2021-02-08
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Forum: Euroleague

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2021-02-27 21:15:16 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
sandra case
# 7219
Some time ago there was a DaW: CzP match, during which sandra over 3 hours in a public chat room insulted me, tried various insinuations, and tormented other players. s/he also came to my table and disturbed my play. Apparently s/he has serious mental problems (this is nothing new, after all)

11.1. It is forbidden to speak in rooms during EL games at the table, except players playing their game at the moment, captains of playing teams, members of the Committee. They should only speak in reasonable cases.
11.2. No comments about the games are allowed until the game is over. Especially comments regarding moves and time are forbidden.

I will ask those who voted in favor of this individual in EL: really?
2021-02-27 19:28:05 Alexey Mikhaylov (off_minor)
Wishes for Igor
# 7218
Igor Eged, get well faster, friend!
2021-01-16 23:09:44 Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst)
RE: Sandra vs. PSGRiP
# 7209
Sandra,

As you mentioned me in your message, I feel obliged to comment on this, as in my opinion, it would be fair to make things more clear. I'm not sure what you meant by suggesting that I know you well, but I would like to focus on another aspect.

First of all, I voted "YES" as Dark Team captain, although my personal vote would be "NO". I was considering this case as relatively serious, for a few reasons, therefore I decided to consult it with my teammates (to be more precise - the active ones) and my final vote was based on their opinions.

I don't think this is necessary to publicly share all my thoughts about why I would choose "NO", but basically you are right that every case like this one is more or less "personal", even if finally we see the arguments on respecting the rules, etc. So every single case shall be considered separately.

It's natural that you analyze it from your own perspective, however others should rather see the wider context. You gave us an example of declared tournaments as a concrete loss on gomoku community side (btw. I think that we can't lose something that we don't really have, but it would be a separate philosophical discussion), nevertheless, I knew then about other declarations - regarding possible leaving the competition by some players, or maybe even teams, in case of your acceptance in EL as an anonymous player. Using your question on one million USD donation, how we can choose between you and someone else in such a case? It's hard to compare two players, but what if there would be 2, 3 or 4 players leaving? And what if it would be 1, 2 or 3 teams leaving because of you? You would rise the prizes to 20, 30 or 40 EUR and so on? I think that this is not an easy choice. But for me it was more natural not to choose someone who doesn't want (or can't, as you suggest) to meet standard EL Rules, in which non-anonymous playing is one of the core principles.

Moreover, I have no idea how exactly other captains made their decision, but I know at least one another example of a similar approach as I described above. So, if I may honestly suggest, I wouldn't take captains' votes that personally, as probably there are your supporters (or good friends as you called them) also in the teams that voted "NO", as well as not everyone supports you in the "YES" teams. It's obviously your choice if you decide to generalize, but I thought it's worth to mention.

Finally, I believe that a friend's role is not to support indiscriminately each other, especially if this is not in accordance with your beliefs. But I would expect my friends to be fair and communicating in an open and honest way.

Best regards,

Angst

P.S. One additional thing about Czechs. Maybe not everyone knows that I really wanted to join CPL, as I find it very interesting and hard competition (almost like IRP :)). Finally, I was not accepted, as CPL rules allow only Czechs and Slovaks to play, so it looks like they are quite consistent in their approach to the rules! I don't feel offended anyhow and I fully respect this. I need to say more - I am really grateful that they hadn't ignored me, but they took it (more or less :)) seriously and considered my request. I will just ask next year once again probably :)
2021-01-15 13:13:14 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7208
Sandra, why all this bs and conspiracy. I told you the reasoning of my decision, now you're asking me how much does a b*tch cost through some artificial construct. Btw. ''How much money is enough and why?'' I like your question based on your own induced premise :D.

Oh, that has to be a misunderstanding, my argument is actually Rule 2.4. The further treatment of potential cheaters among known players is a case of its own and I admit a tricky field, that's why you keep bringing that topic up I guess. The Rule 2.4 provides a decent precaution against anonyms who have much more free space to cheat etc. As I said, I think no known player wants to get their reputation stained. I don't say that no one did it in the past, but the thing is we all know who they are and I think they paid the price for doing so. All in all, let's just not make more chaos than what we actually need to.
2021-01-13 13:30:20 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: Sandra vs. PSGRiP
# 7207
1. Known manipulation method: choose a part and pretend it is a whole. Well, you tried

2. I made it clear 'in another matter'

3. It's obvious, some know, many don't

4. Not briefly, you used the programs long enough. You said because they exposed you.
But this is only a modest part of what your victims described: (example quotes)
'encouraged other people to meet very intimate'
'blackmailed into saying bad things about me'
'she enjoyed setting up numerous fictitious accounts and screwing players in'
and so on

5. Normal irony: D

6. Indeed, some people have told me that you have a strange and abnormal fixation on me. (no) sorry: no chance.
The only interaction is: you stop trolling and preferably leave gomoku / renju
2021-01-13 06:47:55 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: Sandra vs. PSGRiP
# 7206
Okay, it's time to address a new portion of allegations by our old man :)

1. I never demanded payment or another benefit from the PSGRiP and never threatened the PSGRiP to reveal any secret information. I would qualify as a blackmailer if I had done those two things at once, but I did none of them.

What actually happened is the public discussion referenced to by Usiek below. Everyone can follow the link provided by him, read the discussion, and make his or her own judgement. For convenience of the readers, I am posting the link once again: http://forum.gomoku.pl/viewtopic.php?p=59519#59519

When that public discussion was underway, I also had some private conversations with Usiek, the president of the PSGRiP, on the subject of that public discussion. Alicecooper seems to be alleging that I blackmailed the PSGRiP in those private conversations. To clarify the issue, I encourage Alicecooper to publish any private messages of mine and try to explain how he sees there any demands of benefits or any threats to reveal any secret. I believe I didn't make such demands and such threats.

2. Stepan Tesarik and Zoltan Laszlo indeed said I had done something that sounds like blackmail, but their statements actually refer to my recent offer of online tournaments with monetary prizes in return for a permission to play in the EL under my pseudonym. C'mon guys, no way can an offer of money or benefits in return for something qualify as blackmail. Everyone is free to offer anything in exchange for anything.

3. I strongly disagree with the notion that all captains who voted yes didn't know me well. Igor Eged and Piotr Malowiejski are excellent counterexamples.

4. The statement that I ''started gomoku 'career' by cheating people and played with the program'' is highly misleading because I never cheated while playing under known nicknames of mine. What actually happened is a few very brief experiments performed by me with programs in Bieniasze, the main playing hall on Kurnik, under totally secret nicknames created specifically for those experiments and used exclusively for them. I was a novice back then and simply wanted to get some answers about cheating by trying walking in a cheater's shoes. How strong are programs? Is cheating detectable by experienced players? Is it possible to cheat in one-minute gomoku? I didn't violate any rule, for there's no rule on Kurnik to prohibit using programs. Later I myself told people about those secret experiments and their outcomes, otherwise the community wouldn't know.

5. Alicecooper wrote on this forum about me, "This individual should not be admitted to the Euroleague under any conditions." However, a few weeks ago he wrote on this forum something very different, "If you play Euroleague with the camera on the back and the screen, I support it." Is it normal for Polish mature men to flip-flop like a landed fish?

Alicecooper, I apologize in advance for asking a personal question, but do you have a spouse or a gf? I'm asking because your overall behavior looks like that of a lonely man. I know a lot about psychology and want to understand the root cause of your behavior. This might help me improve our interaction.
2021-01-12 13:47:07 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: Sandra vs. PSGRiP
# 7205
1) Stepan, you understand that the blackmailer does not write on the forum or publishes on TV, for example 'and now I want 100 euro, then I'll give you a break' :)

2) And I don't think that publishing private messages is good - even from a creature like sandr

3) as I wrote, it is enough for me if the EL committee asks
2021-01-12 13:02:38 Łukasz Majksner (ursuspl)
RE: Sandra vs. PSGRiP
# 7204
Stepan, the discussion was held on the Polish forum in the following thread: http://forum.gomoku.pl/viewtopic.php?p=59519#59519
2021-01-12 11:31:22 Štěpán Tesařík (payroxid)
Sandra vs. PSGRiP
# 7203
Can be the public objectively acquainted with the case of Sandra vs. PSGRiP? So that everyone can make their own opinion on the matter. Thank you.
2021-01-10 11:02:59 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7199
1) sandra likes to quote, let's see what others think about her (in another matter):
Stepan Tesarik 'Sounds like blackmail',
Zoltan Laszlo 'Although it may not be the oxford definiton exactly, but it does sound like'

2) I suspect that the captains who voted 'yes' don't know the past. Do you know that sandra started gomoku 'career' by cheating people and played with the program? This is confirmed and proven on the Polish forum. Imagine that, instead of apologizing, she later claimed that these were scientific experiments: D

3) This individual should not be admitted to the Euroleague under any conditions
2021-01-10 10:59:04 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7198
1) sandra likes to quote, let's see what others think about her (in another matter):
Štěpán Tesařík 'Sounds like blackmail', Zoltán László 'Although it may not be the oxford definiton exactly, but it does sound like'
2) I suspect that the captains who voted 'yes' don't know the past. Do you know that sandra started gomoku 'career' by cheating people and played with the program? This is confirmed and proven on the Polish forum. Imagine that, instead of apologizing, she later claimed that these were scientific experiments: D
3) This individual should not be admitted to the Euroleague under any conditions
2021-01-10 10:57:20 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7197
1) sandra likes to quote, let's see what others think about her (in another matter):
Štěpán Tesařík "Sounds like blackmail", Zoltán László "Although it may not be the oxford definiton exactly, but it does sound like"

2) I suspect that the captains who voted "yes" don't know the past. Do you know that sandra started gomoku "career" by cheating people and played with the program? This is confirmed and proven on the Polish forum. Imagine that, instead of apologizing, she later claimed that these were scientific experiments: D

3) This individual should not be admitted to the Euroleague under any conditions
2021-01-10 04:48:29 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7196
Marek, if you really mean to say I committed the crime of blackmail, your allegation is not supported by the president of the organization you allege I tried to blackmail. He explicitly stated on this forum a few hours ago that he personally doesn't consider me to have committed a crime.
2021-01-10 00:29:35 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7195
Sandra asks is he a criminal? You have not yet been convicted just because it is difficult for the courts and the police to pursue an internet anonymous.
2021-01-09 22:39:41 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7194
Frantisek, my dear young idealistic Czech friend, it looks like you really believe in principles :) When I was your age, I was as naive as you are. Let me shatter your world with one simple question. Let's suppose a billionaire comes and says he wants to donate one million dollars for gomoku under the condition that he be allowed to play in the EL under a pseudonym, because he is a famous billionaire and doesn't want his gomoku results to be discussed in tabloids. To stay on the safe side, he refuses to reveal his name to anyone in the gomoku community, but provides compelling evidence that he's a billionaire and that he has already donated a lot of money to various charities. Will you be against accepting his offer? You said in your last post, ''I treat the thing as a general principle, if it was anyone else, I would act the same.'' So will you act the same? Really? Will you really reject one million dollars? Will you really walk away from such an opportunity to secure funding for truly attractive monetary prizes in gomoku tournaments for years? And if not, what will you do if half a million dollars is offered? What if quarter a million is offered? How much money is enough and why?

Also, I believe my question about Alicecooper is right on point. Your argument is, ''I don't trust anonyms.'' So let's see whether you trust non-anonymous players. If you don't trust them either, your argument isn't worth a plugged nickel. Alicecooper is a non-anonymous player. Do you trust that he isn't a cheater? Yes or no, please. If you dodge this question once again, I'll take it as a no. If you trusted him, you would just say so.
2021-01-09 22:28:31 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7193
Usiek, thanks for your response. That's what I wanted to hear. I'm not a criminal.
2021-01-09 20:40:06 Łukasz Majksner (ursuspl)
RE: The decisions
# 7192
Sandra, as the President of PSGRiP, I can only confirm that you threatened us. According to the Polish law, whether someone has committed a criminal offense or not can be only determined by a criminal court's judgment. Therefore the PSGRiP is not eligible for judging on accusations.

I personally do not consider you to have committed a crime.

Besides, the Polish counterpart of the English word blackmail - szantaz - is used in Poland in reference to not only criminal actions.
2021-01-06 23:15:07 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7191
Sandra, you are right! I didn't answer that question and I will repeat myself once more - It is irrelevant to the issue of you playing or not playing in the EL. By the way I don't see it as a matter of balls. Nobody gives a sh*t about what I have to say about that since I'm noone and nobody knows me :D. I am truly mesmerized by all your achievements within and beyond gomoku yet once more - I treat the thing as a general principle, if it was anyone else, I would act the same. If you wanna play, I'm happy to play with you, but I do honor the rules of this competition. This particular rule serves as a prevention and I can see some sense to it, that's why I support its application. Surely the rules may change in your favor and if they do and they are reasonable, I will respect it.
2021-01-05 20:45:49 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7190
I am posting the full results of the survey conducted by the EL Committee.

The question of the survey was: ''Is it ok for your team that Sandra Jones plays in EL under this pseudonym without revealing her real name?''

Mano Gyenei (7up): YES
Zoltan Laszlo (Black and White): NO
Jan Purkrabek (Czech Payback): NO
Matej Holub (Czech Payback B): NO
Robin Holusa (Czech Payback C): NO
Stepan Tesarik (Czech Payback D): NO
Jakub Roubicek (Czech Payback E): NO
Piotr Malowiejski (Dark Team): YES
Marek Gorzecki (Demons and Wizards): NO
Alexey Mikhaylov (Humans-2015): YES
Peter Jonsson (Luffarna): YES
Csaba Kamaras (Only We): YES
Igor Eged (Outsiders): YES
Tatiana Volkova (Thunderstorm): NO
Alexey Lebedev (Wake): YES

The total result is 8-7 in favor of no.

Ashot Avetisyan, the captain of Mind Infinity, was not asked. Not only did he support the idea of me playing in the EL under my pseudonym, but he was also prepared to let me play for his team. And because he accepted me to his team, he was excluded from the survey. Had Ashot been allowed to vote, the total result would have been 8-8.

I thank from the bottom of my heart the captains and teams who voted yes. As of now I will treat all of them as my good friends. Thank you very much for your position. It's a pity that you turned out to be too few.

There's something the gomoku community has to understand very clearly: everyone who contributed to the reversal of the decision to let me play under my pseudonym robbed the gomoku community of my regular tournaments with a monetary prize of 15 Euro for a random participant in each tournament. That is, one tournament per week, 52 tournaments per year, 780 Euro per year. This is what the gomoku community lost as a direct result of the decision reversal.

The thing is that when I publicly announced my decision to organize those tournaments, I made it very clear that they were in return for letting me play in the EL under my pseudonym. My announcement explicitly stated, ''Motivated by such a kind decision, I decided to do something good for the gomoku community in return: starting in January, I will organize a series of regular online tournaments with a monetary prize of 15 Euro in each tournament.'' So there can be no excuse that the captains didn't expect that a reversal of the decision to let me play under my pseudonym would lead to a cancellation of my tournaments. And because the announcement of my tournaments was posted on the EL forum (in addition to the Polish forum, the Russian forum, and my Facebook page), there can be no excuse that the captains were not aware of the announcement.

So once again: the teams that voted against me robbed the community of 52 tournaments per year and monetary prizes of 780 Euro per year, either deliberately or by terrible negligence, because my tournaments had explicitly been tied to the permission to play in the EL under my pseudonym.

Furthermore, the gomoku community has now lost all my future donations altogether.

I believe the gomoku community should value sponsors and organizers. I already donated a few hundred euros for the WBC, did a lot of work to co-organize the WBC, and wrote many articles about gomoku, and I run a Youtube channel about gomoku that has 47 subscribers. The channel is so interesting that people spent as much as one year of viewing time in total. And I asked for a little. No one would get harmed in any way if my request had been fulfilled. I'm not a random anonym. I've been widely known in the gomoku community as Sandra Jones since many years ago and have 67 Facebook friends from the gomoku community. Аs a Western researcher, I must avoid any Internet activity under my real name in order to protect my research career, so I chose a permanent pseudonym for the gomoku community. I am not a strong player and would probably lose much more games than I would win. There's no way I could affect the fight for the top places in any way. I only wanted to enjoy serious games in the gomoku world, a world I had so much contributed to.

I am not asking to reconsider the decision reversal. I have completely lost my desire to play in the EL and make financial and organizational contributions to the gomoku community. I don't want to help a community that has refused to treat me humanly. The fun has been killed. I'll only play on Playok and other servers, chat with close friends from the gomoku community, and write posts when I feel like doing so. I am not leaving the community. I will still be with you. I will merely not make any further financial and organizational contributions.

The purpose of my post is to simply let you know all the facts. I just want you to have full clarity as to how it happened that you lost me as a sponsor and organizer.
2021-01-05 20:23:57 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7189
Usiek, have you as the PSGRiP president decided to ignore my question?

Marek Gorzecki (aka Alicecooper), a member of the PSGRiP board, publicly stated on this forum that I had "tried to blackmail" the PSGRiP. He wrote his post in English, and blackmail is an extremely serious word in the English language and means a criminal offence. To understand how this word is used in English, open the Oxford dictionary of the English language and read the definition of this word: "The action, treated as a criminal offence, of demanding payment or another benefit from someone in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them." Link: https://www.lexico.com/definition/blackmail Sure, this word is occasionally used figuratively, like in "emotional blackmail," but that requires a proper context or hints indicating a figurative use, like the word "emotional." If you simply say that Person A blackmailed or tried to blackmail Organization B, it is always understood in the English language as an accusation of a crime. So Marek's post as it stands is an accusation of a crime, at least from the standpoint of the language his post is written in.

Having been publicly depicted as a criminal by a PSGRiP board member who said you as the PSGRiP president can be asked to confirm his words, I have no other choice but to clarify the matter before the community.

I am therefore formally asking you to officially provide an answer to the following question: Does the PSGRiP consider me to have committed a criminal offence of blackmail against the PSGRiP? To put it simply: does the PSGRiP consider me a criminal?
2021-01-05 20:19:29 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7188
Frantisek, you didn't answer my question whether you trust that Marek Gorzecki aka Alicecopper isn't a cheater. If you trust players who provide real names, then tell us that you trust that Alicecooper isn't a cheater. Come on, tell us. He provided his real name. So tell us that you trust that he isn't a cheater. Can you? Let's see whether you've got the balls to publicly answer this question.

I am astonished by you comparing me with an anonym who "may appear, cheat and then vanish back to the void." I've been widely known in the gomoku community as Sandra Jones since many years ago and have 67 Facebook friends from the gomoku community. I consider some of them to be really good friends and regularly chat with them. Аs a Western researcher, I must avoid any Internet activity under my real name in order to protect my research career, so I chose a permanent pseudonym for the gomoku community. I already donated a few hundred euros for the WBC, did a lot of work to co-organize the WBC, and wrote many articles about gomoku, and I run a Youtube channel about gomoku that has 47 subscribers. The channel is so interesting that people spent as much as one year of viewing time in total. Are you really suggesting I did all that to "cheat and vanish back in the void"?

And I'm disappointed by your failure to see the link between donating money and playing fair. In short, if a person sacrifices own money and time to popularize gomoku, he or she truly loves the game, and such people won't cheat. They know what they are doing, are not driven by a need of self-affirmation, and won't even have subconscious urges to cheat, let alone succumb to them. If you can't understand that, you don't really love the game.
2020-12-30 16:49:39 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7186
These questions are somewhat out of the frame of the issue. Of course we could discuss cheating as a matter of its own since it is probably the biggest concern in online competitions and so hard to prove if performed subtly. The truth is if Alice or any other person got convicted of cheating by a chance, it would leave a permanent stain on their reputation with them being widely known amongst the community. On the other hand an anonym may appear, cheat and then vanish back to the void. As to the last question - I don't quite see the causality between devotion/donating money and the probability of not cheating.
2020-12-27 16:37:13 Ashot Avetisyan (ashot)
RE: The decisions
# 7185
Sandra I don’t want to discuss it correctly or not, I’m just saying that you are a very good Person
2020-12-27 13:39:31 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7184
Frantisek, you say you don't trust anonyms. Do you trust people who play under their real names? Do you trust Marek Gorzecki aka Alicecooper? Do you trust that he is not a cheater?

Who is more likely to cheat - the Polish guy who was publicly accused of cheating by Osipov, Kondratiev, Kozhin, Muratov, and Menesi, or the anonym who loves the game so much that she has already donated a few hundred euros for gomoku?
2020-12-27 12:55:05 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7183
Well I personally treat this as a general principle. So whatever the reasons may be, be it cheating or account duplicity, it applies (or should apply according to me, since we are even discussing this) to everyone. I don't go over the rules and seek for reasons why this or that wouldn't apply to a particular person. Even after my previous comment, you keep relating it to yourself, so once again - It does not necessarily have to do with you as a person. With all respect to your contribution, I don't trust anonyms. The first thing I would expect you to reply would be: "But what about "Andrzej Kostecki" etc." Well yes, I definitely admit that violation of the rule might have unknowingly happened, but treating the rule with "It was violated in the past, so let's violate it further more anyway" is not exactly a way to consistency.
2020-12-26 23:16:46 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7182
In view of the reversal of the decision to let me play in the EL under my pseudonym, I reverse my decision to organize regular online tournaments with a monetary prize of 15 Euro to be awarded in each tournament to a random participant.

When I announced my decision to organize such tournaments, I made it very clear that it was in return for letting me play in the EL under my pseudonym.

I feel that if the community is unwilling to do me even such a little favor, I shouldn't be willing to commit myself to such regular financial donations and organizational work.
2020-12-26 16:05:11 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7181
František, what bad thing that the real-name rule is supposed to prevent are you afraid of in my case? Cheating? Being a clone of another EL participant? Or what?
2020-12-26 12:52:03 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7179
I find Alicecooper's last statement to be a totally false allegation, and I'm surprised he says the PSGRiP's president will confirm. So let's ask the PSGRiP's president. Usiek, did I blackmail the PSGRiP?
2020-12-26 12:36:46 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7178
Hey homie. What one grown Australian prominent quantum mechanics Nobel laureate doesn't understand is that there are some rules to the Euroleague, one of which is forbidding players to play under a fake name. I do not by any means neglect the fact this rule might have been violated in the past due to some sloppiness on the organizers' part. However as it happens, your case is in a direct conflict with this very rule making it sort of a serious thing in our boring lives. And as a matter of fact, being so, it doesn't happen to be decided by one Iec, but by a whole bunch of Eastern European hillbillies who form the EL, some of which are simply too reluctant to see the rules pass right in between their fingers and who want to preserve at least some integrity to the competition. I don't say the EL has been perfect, there surely were cheaters caught red-handed in the past, there might still be some, there might have been other minor or major violations to the rules. But who knows - next year some Sándor Johansson might come and ask us to play with multiple accounts because of something and we will make the rules looser and looser until there are no rules at all. Some people just choose imperfect rules over no rules. The thing is these guys' stance doesn't necessarily have to do with any sympathy towards you. I surely do appreciate your efforts to promote the game and to make it more fun for us to play, however I have a quite strict stance in such a case. I hope your huge brain has enough capacity to pick up on all these stimuli, but all in all what am I even saying - I'm just this ignorant Eastern European bumpkin whose biggest life achievement was they stopped taking a dump onto the ground :)
2020-12-26 10:24:51 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7177
Maybe this person did some good things, but I know for sure how many bad things they did, for example recently they tried to blackmail the Polish gomoku association. That is why I strongly protest against any participation of sandra in Euroleague. (the committee may ask our president if this is true)
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